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Division 2: Discussion Thread & Skype Contacts

Discussion in 'Division 2: Blue Shell' started by Viraith, Mar 27, 2015.

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  1. Viraith

    Viraith WL Staff

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    SKYPE CONTACTS

    DAUGHTERS OF THE AMAZON - KING DECIMATOR (kingdecimator)
    REFLECTION
    - KAYLA (ikya__) TOMMY (mk-tommy)
    RELAPSE - PROTO (xdropgorzx777) SOLAR (solar-moon.)
    THE SURVIVORS - SIMON (slimyelson00)
    UNT0UCHABLES - SAL (xsalfish)
    WII ELITE CLAN - PHIL (philippaufskype)

    - BEST IF VIEWED WITH MKBOARDS DARK THEME
    - CREDIT FOR DIVISION CREST GOES TO ALPHA
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  2. Apraxia

    Apraxia ,k,k,k,k,k,k,k,

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    again gl hf xp
     
  3. malefic

    malefic

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    as liftboat would say,
    "gl fgts"
     
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  4. Tmy

    Tmy

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  5. King

    King

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    good luck everyone (again) :smug:
     
  6. Vien

    Vien

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    Good luck to all teams this season! :)
     
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  7. TK64

    TK64

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    just going to paste what i posted to hawk and viraith here

    hey
    here's something that I bet nobody thought of
    http://i.imgur.com/EnT4WUp.png this "proof" given for the host code being late
    the guy's fuckin computer clock could have been off synch
    so if you're going to be rule nazis
    you have to understand the fact that something like that cannot be accepted as 100% proof
    because of the possibility of a time error
    ^ one of many reasons that counting a -20 penalty here doesn't make sense
    [12:09:38 AM] tk: aside from just, yknow, common sense
    [12:10:27 AM] tk: and if you're going to dismiss the possibility of the time being off as "unlikely" then it just contradicts how deadset on following the rules the council is
    [12:11:04 AM] tk: because the guy's time could have been off by a minute and that would be the difference from the code being given 47 seconds late or 13 seconds early
    [12:11:17 AM] tk: which, by the way, could be something that was deliberately done
    [12:11:55 AM] tk: considering it does seem very odd in the first place that RE would be prepared to call out a penalty like this in the first place, it's possible that instead of digging for it after the war they came prepared with this strategy in their back pocket
    [12:12:41 AM] tk: because of how close the code was given to the scheduled time, it creates this issue of uncertainty, which further illustrates why a penalty should not be counted
    [12:15:56 AM] tk: So if you wanted "constructive conversation" and not just "me bitching at you" then there you go, grounds that what was used as proof cannot be considered as 100% proof and therefore even if you're going to be a rule bot instead of a division admin and not reason that the possible 48 seconds lost did not affect the match at all and therefore should not incur a penalty in the first place, it still should not count even if you simply go by the rules.
    [12:16:57 AM] tk: I also feel obligated to add that RE even said that they accepted the loss and the person who pushed for the penalty to go through was Brian, a banned player. This is not my main point, but is just another thing that should be taken into consideration by you and the council when trying to make a REASONABLE decision
    [12:17:40 AM] Luca: worst thing was that we couldnt even do anything about it
    [12:17:48 AM] Luca: we agreed, we didnt want to win by a stupid penalty

    please reconsider this awful decision that was made under rc's noses without giving them any opportunity to defend themselves, thanks
     
  8. Killua

    Killua 私はアダージョが大好き WL Staff

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    TK has stated all the points that I think should be mentioned. The only thing I'd like to add is that you should really consider if a team deserves a win because a host was given 47 seconds late.

    Please tell me if you can sincerely answer 'yes' to that question. I'd like to note I don't care about rc and I'd be arguing this hard if it was Av, Zy or another clan in div1. This is the worst ruling I've seen in 7 years of playing, and that includes when I saw a trolling penalty for a team trolling their own player.
     
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  9. Tmy

    Tmy

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    what TK said was a very interesting point and I have never thought of that. Considering it's Brian, I wouldn't be surprised if the clock was purposely screwed up. Also as I've shown before I have many quotes from RE players tht didn't want to do it but then a banned player comes along and changes that, but apparently it's irrelevant. Hawk told me it would be Gentlemen's Agreement, and I understand that part. I don't even know what this rule is actually trying to accomplish in the first place? Maybe it should be like "the host can not open the room until 15 minutes have passed since you gave the host fc"

    TLDR: pretty bullshit we lost on out of game penalty that had ZERO impact on the races.
     
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  10. K2LTen

    K2LTen Guest

    Your first argument about Proto "changing" his computer time: We brought this penalty up to the public straight after the match, which was 11 days after the final decision was made (last night). If this truly was the case (which I know for a fact it wasn't, since I saw it was after :45:00 on my computer as well), Kayla would have obviously checked on his chat logs by now. Especially since, like everyone has been saying, "it was only 47 seconds late."

    Your second point: "it does seem very odd in the first place that RE would be prepared to call out a penalty like this in the first place, it's possible that instead of digging for it after the way they cam prepared with this strategy in their back pocket" - Now, of course that's possible. However, if you're still implying that Proto changed his time beforehand by a minute or so, Kayla would have brought up that the time wasn't past :45:00 on his computer.

    Your third point: "the possible 48 seconds lost did not affect the match at all and therefore should not incur a penalty in the first place" - There's plenty of rules in the CSL ruleset that don't affect the outcome of a match (in-game, is what you mean I'm assuming). For example, just last week, Extream, who was completely against Reflection getting this penalty, is the one who willingly gave Moi a penalty for using a purple bandana on their Funky Kong. If that's not biased as a staff member toward his clan, then I don't know what is considered bias.

    Your forth point: "I also feel obligated to add that RE even said that they accepted the loss and the person who pushed for the penalty to go through was Brian, a banned player." - Proto didn't want to deal with the drama that would come along with following the rules, so that's why I stepped up and did it. He mentioned it to me in the call when I asked if they gave the host FC in time. And it doesn't matter who pushed for the penalty anyway, it clearly says under General Rule #2 that all rules and penalties are to be enforced with another rule saying that no gentlemen's agreements are allowed unless specifically stated in a rule.

    Sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to start an argument. I'm not. I'm only trying to show you (and everyone else reading) what actually happened.

    By saying that they shouldn't receive that penalty is you saying you don't like the current CSL rules. Why are you blaming Relapse for that? They didn't make the rules, they're only following them as a participating team in the league. And as far as the current rules go, Reflection deserves the penalty they received (finally, after 11 days).

    The biasness in your post is almost unreal. Anyway, back to the main point. Like I already said in reply to TK, Kayla would have pointed out after 11 days if it wasn't past :45:00 on his computer. At your TLDR, a lot of rules that are in the ruleset, like I have already said as well, don't affect the races, but are still there.


    One last thing I'd like to add as a general post is that if Relapse did break a rule like this, which they don't think is "cool" (but have to follow it because it's in the ruleset), they wouldn't argue the penalty.

    With all of that being said, I'm ending my post here. Thank you for reading, and have a great day.
     
  11. Tmy

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    well maybe proto could have said, "someone else is handling this" instead of accepting that he lost @K2LTen
     
  12. TK64

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    RE accepting the loss aside, what Proto has isn't sufficient proof and Kayla shouldn't even have to use her chat logs to combat this bullshit because of the possibility of error. The fact that the time the "code was given late" is close enough to the actual time to warrant the possibility of a clock error says enough. It's absurd to give a -20 penalty for a code being given less than a minute late as it is but even if you're going to be so keen on going by the rules then what Proto has given isn't enough and shouldn't be accepted for a penalty in the first place.

    The entire matter of RE "accepting the loss" is irrelevant in this case, though it's clear that they aren't accepting the loss in the first place because of how hard Brian is pushing for this penalty to go through (which I don't understand, you literally aren't even allowed to play, why do you care so much?). This utter desperation for a win from a war that you clearly lost doesn't reflect very well on your clan by the way.
     
  13. K2LTen

    K2LTen Guest

    You're assuming that Proto changed the time on his clock. If you truly think that, once again, Kayla would have brought that up immediately. They aren't desperate for a win, they're only following the rules. Also, I'm not sure if you know this, but Luca (who was playing for Relapse in this match) disconnected in 1st place on the final turn of rBC with 2 suicide baggers in the race (meaning the most he could have possibly gotten even with a major fail was 8th place and they wouldn't have lost even if this penalty wasn't in effect), so no, they didn't "clearly lose."
     
  14. Tmy

    Tmy

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    if we wanna blame a dc, I Dcd on rPG in 10th after 30 seconds
     
  15. TK64

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    Both teams had a d/c and that is completely irrelevant at this point, and I'm not assuming that Proto changed the time on his computer clock, I'm just bringing up the possibility. The uncertainty itself which is due to how close the FC was given to :45 alone should result in the penalty being dismissed.
     
  16. Bubbles

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    Many people argue that the penalty shouldn't be counted because it was only 47 seconds late (supposedly, if proto's clock was correct). Out of curiosity, would you say that giving the fc 60 seconds late should be excused as well? What if the fc was delivered 5 minutes late? How much time would have to pass before you would agree that the rule has been broken?
     
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  17. Tmy

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    I feel it should be about 10 mins ~ plenty of enough time to turn on wii, make a mii, turn off textures, add fc and join. Most likely a bit of time to spare.
     
  18. TK64

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    I'd probably say 5+ minutes would certainly be more reasonable, what this should come down to is the division admin's interpretation of the rules to come to a reasonable conclusion. Viraith, as the division admin, decided that the penalty should not be counted, but then was overturned by the council. This in itself doesn't make much sense, what is even the point of having a division admin if they aren't going to be allowed to make decisions for their division? Even so, the council voting on having the penalty count is ludicrous to me, any reasonable person should be able to see that the host FC being given 47 seconds late in the first place does not warrant a 20 point penalty. This isn't even taking into consideration the fact that Proto could have altered his clock or bs'd the screenshot, therefore meaning that the proof of the already odd situation isn't valid in the first place. The decision should definitely be reconsidered like the Av vs in decision was.
     
  19. K2LTen

    K2LTen Guest

    Proto already had the shock before you even disconnected (source in spoiler below). So the biggest difference that would have happened that race is you possibly getting 9th instead of 10th (2 pt difference in total if that was the case). But once again, like TK said in the next post, it doesn't matter. I was just stating that our d/c in 1st at the line was very costly compared to your d/c (as a bagger) when our bagger already had the shock.


    The possibility should (and would) have been proven wrong by Kayla by now if he was lying. The fact is that it was late, and the rules state that a penalty is to be enforced if you aren't within the listed timeframe. You can't expect to not receive a penalty because you think it's fine to be late as long as it's only by 47 seconds. With the current rules, you have 2 hours & 45 minutes to give the host FC to the opposing team... there's really no excuse for being late.

    I know this isn't directed at me, but giving your personal opinion on this specific matter isn't going to change the outcome of this match since the rules are set in place as of now. And as of now, Reflection was in the wrong.
     
  20. Tmy

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    I know this is totally irrelevant but I coulda got the shock out of him and got it for myself then dodged my team. Your logic is flawed. @K2LTen
     
  21. Bubbles

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    The rules exist in order to create an environment where league play is organized, efficient, and fair. The purpose of the fc-delivery time rule is to ensure that the match can be played as scheduled and in a timely manner. Unfortunately, the rule was broken according to the screenshot shown.

    If I was on the receiving end of this penalty, I would be sad, too. It feels like getting cheated out of a deserved victory. Because of this sentiment, rc and others (including myself!) feel that this rule needs to be modified in some way. I think we can all agree that the rule's purpose is good, but the specific timeframe and/or penalty aspects of it will need some modification. As with all communities, we are ever-changing based on conflicts and needs that arise. This is a good suggestion for a rule modification, so it will be taken into account in a future revision(s). After the rule is revamped and people are fully aware of it, there will be less (hopefully zero) disagreement, and we'll be able to start matches in a timely manner with no need for 'unnecessary' penalization.

    However, at the present moment we're stuck with the rule we have now. As much as it may seem unfair or unnecessary, a penalty can and should be given in this case, given proto's clock is accurate. The rule revision process will be done in time; right now, it's unjust to disregard or manipulate the current ruleset in order to fit the point of view of a certain group.

    As to the validity of the provided screenshot: in no way does the ruleset indicate what kind of proof is required for a penalty like this to be given. Again, we have to deal with a flawed ruleset. Trolling penalties, for example, require solid video proof. A screenshot showing the tardiness of fc delivery is a form of proof, though definitely questionable, as you say. Thus, it's left up to opinion. What if proto's clock is actually 50 seconds fast?

    Or, based on another part of the screenshot, we can assume that since kayla says "30 minutes ?!???" at 9:30 on the given timestamps, kayla's clock is accurate in addition to having knowledge of the war's scheduled start time. Kayla probably didn't know, however, about the no-later-than-15mins before start time rule.
     
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  22. TK64

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    Yes, let's just throw all reason and logic that a 20 point penalty for a code being given 47 seconds late is ridiculous and just be rule following robots.

    Arguing that Kayla saying "30 minutes ?!???" at 9:30 on Proto's timestamps is pointless because that could be 9:30:01 or 9:30:48 (the 47 seconds that apparently could make allllllll the difference according to this splendid council)

    Changing the rule is pointless now because this situation isn't going to happen again. First of all, any reasonable clan isn't going to call out another clan on something as stupid as this (RE is obviously an exception to this criteria), and secondly, after seeing how a team can be cheated out of a win based off of something as simple as this teams will be paranoid about being ass fucked out of their win. Is that what you want? A league that's run on fear?

    Reworking the rules after teams like rc, moi, wZ and so on are already cheated out of points and victories is comparable to installing a security system into your house AFTER it gets broken into and you lose everything. Except the notable difference is here is that a situation like THAT is irreversable, a situation like THIS can easily be fixed by just sitting down and saying "Alright, this rule is unreasonable and should be altered, let's admit that we made a mistake in the ruleset and make a decision on this match accordingly." You're just choosing not to.

    I'm done wasting my time here, leagues like WCL and IL never had rulings as awful as this and it's sad to see how much the quality of the people we put in charge has deteriorated. I guess it's just something that people will have to get used to. Good luck if you manage to get into Division 1, Relapse, you'll need it.
     
  23. Tmy

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    not to mention ima be on tilt now 8)
     
  24. Kiltron

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    Pretty much all I'm hearing is there is that we should consider revising General Rule 2
    I can understand why it was written like that, it'd suck to have a biased div admin and there was a lot of outcry about it last season, but now it seems pretty obvious that the deficits heavily outweigh the benefits. A div admin who had a bit more autonomy would be able to take into consideration the hectic realities that this game never ceases to throw at us.

    I understand your metaphor TK, but typically you wouldn't change results based on new rules. For example the United States didn't go around and round up all the weed smokers who blazed up pre-Marijuana Tax Act of 1937 because that's how the rules were enforced at the time.

    Obviously you're right about this being something much more easy to fix than a robbery, but it just doesn't feel right to change results of matches that happened under one given set of rules because now, post match, the rules have changed. RE, RA, and AV "won" under the set of rules that were in place during those matches.
     
  25. Apraxia

    Apraxia ,k,k,k,k,k,k,k,

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    I want a revote from Avail the council.


    Just because we are in D2 doesn't mean we can't be taken into more consideration. Just like the bullshit Av vs in case. If this was D1 i guarantee you that this penalty would have NEVER counted, especially if Avail was the accused.

    Why is there a rule that takes away points from teams, that has nothing to do with in game racing? Can the council please realize how unreasonable this decision is. There needs to be an exception to something that takes 0 affect into the results of a match. The delayed friend code didn't prevent anything and I mean ANYTHING from happening.

    Can the council please but this into their own clans situation...

    How bullshit would it sound honestly to lose because your player was not back within a 15 minutes timeframe to give you an fc....
     
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